Hey All. Good news!
This email came in yesterday from Amy regarding the Golf Member's fees for the next 6 months (or so).
===
"We appreciate your feedback and understand your concern on the reduced subscription fee for Ordinary Membership during the renovation period. We are pleased to inform you that The Legends Golf & Country Resort has agreed to lower the subscriptions and we will be sending affected members an official letter informing them of this soon."
===
Look in the post for those letters. Not sure what the amount will be either. I hope it will be substantial.
Showing posts with label $80 Golf Member Fees. Show all posts
Showing posts with label $80 Golf Member Fees. Show all posts
Friday, October 31, 2008
Saturday, October 18, 2008
A History of The Legends FC Membership Types
I love the Wayback Machine from the Internet Archives. "Browse through 85 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago." So if you put in a URL (like http://www.legendsfortcanning.com/fortcanning/member.htm), the archive will let you see all the versions that they have kept of the site over time!!!
Talking to a few members who don't remember the Club having any kind of tiered membership, I started to do a little research as my wife and I also so not remember Golfing vs. Social membership types when we joined. Hence, the Wayback Machine comes into the picture...
So back in 13 February 2004 (and probably before then), there was only 1 kind of membership (no difference between Golf or Social): See Members Benefit here.
By the 25 November 2004, the Club also began offering "OCBC Titanium-Legends Fort Canning Park Membership": See the offer here. I could not find a mention of other kinds of membership, but benefits at that time are listed here.
By 23 August 2005, the Club was offering "Ordinary Membership" without any distinction between Social or Golfing. See here. Term membership with OCBC Titanium is still available. Under the membership benefit page that September, it lists "Members enjoy access to 64 golf slots daily and unlimited access to all other facilities and activities available at The Legends Golf & Country Resort. Rewards Points can only be earned and redeemed at the Club (The Legends Fort Canning Park). For the golf rates and bookings at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, please call..."
By 27 April 2006, the Club introduced the new "Ordinary Golfing" and "Ordinary Social" membership tiers. Did anyone get the memo? Did any existing members get a letter to them that tells them what they are? I didn't.
By 23 November 2006, the membership chart looks as follows:
On 23 January 2008, the last entry into the Archive lists the same as the above. (Anything after 1 April 2008 is still being processed).
Note that all this while, the Membership Benefits page archive does not mention a distinction between "Golf" and "Social". See all the versions here. EVEN the current live version on at legendsfortcanning.com does NOT have this distinction!
- "Ordinary Members are entitled for the following benefits: ...
... Members enjoy access to 64 golf slots daily and unlimited access to all other facilities and activities available at The Legends Golf & Country Resort... For the golf rates and bookings at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, please call..."
So are the current members clear on the difference between "Ordinary Golf" and "Ordinary Social"? Letter?
So somewhere between January and September 2008, the packages, listed on the current site, suddenly became:
What does that mean? Do any members who have joined before 2006 know what is the difference between Golfing and Social membership? We know that we are both "Ordinary".
Talking to a few members who don't remember the Club having any kind of tiered membership, I started to do a little research as my wife and I also so not remember Golfing vs. Social membership types when we joined. Hence, the Wayback Machine comes into the picture...
So back in 13 February 2004 (and probably before then), there was only 1 kind of membership (no difference between Golf or Social): See Members Benefit here.
By the 25 November 2004, the Club also began offering "OCBC Titanium-Legends Fort Canning Park Membership": See the offer here. I could not find a mention of other kinds of membership, but benefits at that time are listed here.
By 23 August 2005, the Club was offering "Ordinary Membership" without any distinction between Social or Golfing. See here. Term membership with OCBC Titanium is still available. Under the membership benefit page that September, it lists "Members enjoy access to 64 golf slots daily and unlimited access to all other facilities and activities available at The Legends Golf & Country Resort. Rewards Points can only be earned and redeemed at the Club (The Legends Fort Canning Park). For the golf rates and bookings at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, please call..."
By 27 April 2006, the Club introduced the new "Ordinary Golfing" and "Ordinary Social" membership tiers. Did anyone get the memo? Did any existing members get a letter to them that tells them what they are? I didn't.
Membership Types | Entrance Fee | Transfer Fee | Monthly Subscription |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ordinary Golfing | $7,988 | $1,000 | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
| Ordinary Social | $5,888 | $1,000 | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
| Membership Redemption Scheme Golfing (MRSG) | $2,500 |
Pls refer to Terms & Conditions below. | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
Membership Redemption Scheme Social (MRSS) | $1,500 |
Pls refer to Terms & Conditions below. | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
One Year Term | $3,188 | Non-Transferable | N.A |
By 23 November 2006, the membership chart looks as follows:
Membership Types | Entrance Fee | Transfer Fee | Monthly Subscription |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ordinary Golfing | $9,888 | $1,000 | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
| Ordinary Social | $6,888 | $1,000 | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
| Membership Redemption Scheme Golfing (MRSG) | $3,000 |
Pls refer to Terms & Conditions below. | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
Membership Redemption Scheme Social (MRSS) | $2,000 |
Pls refer to Terms & Conditions below. | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
One Year Term Golfing | $3,188 | Non-Transferable | N.A. |
One Year Term Social | $2,188 | Non-Transferable | N.A. |
On 23 January 2008, the last entry into the Archive lists the same as the above. (Anything after 1 April 2008 is still being processed).
Note that all this while, the Membership Benefits page archive does not mention a distinction between "Golf" and "Social". See all the versions here. EVEN the current live version on at legendsfortcanning.com does NOT have this distinction!
- "Ordinary Members are entitled for the following benefits: ...
... Members enjoy access to 64 golf slots daily and unlimited access to all other facilities and activities available at The Legends Golf & Country Resort... For the golf rates and bookings at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, please call..."
So are the current members clear on the difference between "Ordinary Golf" and "Ordinary Social"? Letter?
So somewhere between January and September 2008, the packages, listed on the current site, suddenly became:
Membership Types | Entrance Fee | Transfer Fee | Monthly Subscription |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ordinary Golfing | $15,000 | $1,000 | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
| Ordinary Social | $6,888 | $1,000 | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
What does that mean? Do any members who have joined before 2006 know what is the difference between Golfing and Social membership? We know that we are both "Ordinary".
Wednesday, October 15, 2008
Membership Type Confusion
Members have been asking about what type of membership they have. Golf Members (Family) are supposed to pay $125 per month for subscription and $80 per month during the renovation. So members have called in because they were not sure if they were considered "Golf" Members. See my earlier post "What kind of membership do YOU have?"
Well - Sally, a member, has called the Club to figure out her status. Here is what she told me in an email:
===
As at now, my club status is still a big question; I just called the Club and they can't tell me what type of membership I'm having! Reason: I paid $6xxxx+ for the membership(which the club said with this amt it should be Social membership) but monthly subscription fee is $125++ (which the club is now confused for with this amt, it's for Golf membership)!They can't tell me anything!
Think this is quite absurd. Am still waiting for their call to clarify this matter.
===
This is quite interesting indeed. So if you are like Sally who is apparently a "Social Member" who has been paying "Golf Member" subscription fees. GO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!!!!
I am going to have to check on my status as well. $20 per month over 24 months is $480! What is going on?
UPDATE - Sally posted in the comment section:
===
to add what has already posted here...I've been a member since 2004! That's 4 years ago...as i've been very busy with my work, i'll definitely find time to meet someone from membership dept to find out my exact status.And of course, i better bring along my contract signed 4 years ago!
===
Well - Sally, a member, has called the Club to figure out her status. Here is what she told me in an email:
===
As at now, my club status is still a big question; I just called the Club and they can't tell me what type of membership I'm having! Reason: I paid $6xxxx+ for the membership(which the club said with this amt it should be Social membership) but monthly subscription fee is $125++ (which the club is now confused for with this amt, it's for Golf membership)!They can't tell me anything!
Think this is quite absurd. Am still waiting for their call to clarify this matter.
===
This is quite interesting indeed. So if you are like Sally who is apparently a "Social Member" who has been paying "Golf Member" subscription fees. GO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!!!!
I am going to have to check on my status as well. $20 per month over 24 months is $480! What is going on?
UPDATE - Sally posted in the comment section:
===
to add what has already posted here...I've been a member since 2004! That's 4 years ago...as i've been very busy with my work, i'll definitely find time to meet someone from membership dept to find out my exact status.And of course, i better bring along my contract signed 4 years ago!
===
Saturday, October 11, 2008
What kind of membership do YOU have?
Many of us are still wondering whether or not we are "Golf" Members and we are looking at our original membership documents to see where we were told such such terms.
From The Legends Fort Canning official website, it says:
Individual Membership
http://www.legendsfortcanning.com/fortcanning/member.htm
==============
When did it become "Ordinary Golfing" and "Ordinary Social"? I don't remember that distinction. And I definitely do not remember a $15,000 entrance fee - which just seems like a ploy to keep people from joining. Anti-membership.....
From The Legends Fort Canning official website, it says:
Individual Membership
| Membership Types | Entrance Fee | Transfer Fee | Monthly Subscription |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ordinary Golfing | $15,000 | $1,000 | $105 (S) / $125 (F) |
| Ordinary Social | $6,888 | $1,000 | $85 (S) / $105 (F) |
http://www.legendsfortcanning.com/fortcanning/member.htm
==============
When did it become "Ordinary Golfing" and "Ordinary Social"? I don't remember that distinction. And I definitely do not remember a $15,000 entrance fee - which just seems like a ploy to keep people from joining. Anti-membership.....
Let's Meet! at the Bar & Billiard Bin Sale - 15th October 2008
During the Members' Conference on Monday, they announced that there would be a Bin Sale at the Bar and Billiard on Wednesday 15th October. It is scheduled to be from 5-9pm, so perhaps 6:30ish would be a good time to aim for.
Let's use this event to meet and discuss what we want to do. We need to prioritize our issues so that we can have a concerted voice with which to speak to the Club and its owners. From what I have been hearing, here are some main points:
1) Most if not all members do not want to move to the new club house and prefer the current ambiance and charm of the existing building.
2) Why don't they keep the club open and build the glass building and then move us over? I will expand on this more this weekend.
3) Why isn't there a buy-back scheme for those who do not wish to remain members? There are already members who are speaking to their lawyers to review this option.
4) The $80 fee for Golf Members who don't even know that they are Golf Members much less play golf. This is roughly 40% of the membership.
Anything else?
Lastly, please bring in any member that you know or run into.
UPDATE: You may have gotten this email for "Pre-Makeover Party"
Let's use this event to meet and discuss what we want to do. We need to prioritize our issues so that we can have a concerted voice with which to speak to the Club and its owners. From what I have been hearing, here are some main points:
1) Most if not all members do not want to move to the new club house and prefer the current ambiance and charm of the existing building.
2) Why don't they keep the club open and build the glass building and then move us over? I will expand on this more this weekend.
3) Why isn't there a buy-back scheme for those who do not wish to remain members? There are already members who are speaking to their lawyers to review this option.
4) The $80 fee for Golf Members who don't even know that they are Golf Members much less play golf. This is roughly 40% of the membership.
Anything else?
Lastly, please bring in any member that you know or run into.
UPDATE: You may have gotten this email for "Pre-Makeover Party"
Friday, October 10, 2008
The Poor Staff, Membership drive and Subscriptions
More Member Feedback and Support!!!! I just got another email from a member who offers her support as follows:
====
Hi Joe,
Although this is OWNER'S Club (which the management always claim) and not a Member's Club. You may have a fantastic building, but no members is no good. We must learn to live for one another. By closing down the club for 6 months is definitely do not take the members usage of the club facilities into considerations at all. The new extension to house the facilities is on the exterior of the building, why can't that be built first? Transfer the facilities, eg. the GYM before renovating the Rooms. Don't just think of making MONEY, MONEY. Nevertheless, that is only between the Owner and Members. Have the owner & management ever give a thought to the employees??? At this recession time by terminating their services, except for a lucky few, means no income.
It is not just affecting the employee but also to their families. Where is the humanity???
Talk about the lack of memberships???
Isn't it the responsibilities of the marketing department? When was the last membership drive??? You penalize your members for the inefficiency of your management???
My family and I joined this club is because of the location which has historical value and so much for their F&B. If its is for F&B and Hotel Rooms, then we would have invested with the any of the Hotel Group which is cheaper and no monthly subscriptions.
Talk about subscriptions, I was just been enlightened that there is a 2 tier membership's fees, golfing and non golfing. We only know that subscriptions fees of $125 entitles you to use the Legends Golf Course in JB. We do not know that you will pay less if you do not need golfing. The management can argued that information is listed on the web but then again, if you are already a member for so many years do you go the site to search for such info.
Sincerely hope that the Owner and the Management will look into the process of this project into greater thoughts. We do not want to lose this Club!!!
Joe, we will support your petition.
HL
====
If anyone would like me to publish their feedback, please leave a comment or email me at goo.nguyen@gmail.com
- Joe
====
Hi Joe,
Although this is OWNER'S Club (which the management always claim) and not a Member's Club. You may have a fantastic building, but no members is no good. We must learn to live for one another. By closing down the club for 6 months is definitely do not take the members usage of the club facilities into considerations at all. The new extension to house the facilities is on the exterior of the building, why can't that be built first? Transfer the facilities, eg. the GYM before renovating the Rooms. Don't just think of making MONEY, MONEY. Nevertheless, that is only between the Owner and Members. Have the owner & management ever give a thought to the employees??? At this recession time by terminating their services, except for a lucky few, means no income.
It is not just affecting the employee but also to their families. Where is the humanity???
Talk about the lack of memberships???
Isn't it the responsibilities of the marketing department? When was the last membership drive??? You penalize your members for the inefficiency of your management???
My family and I joined this club is because of the location which has historical value and so much for their F&B. If its is for F&B and Hotel Rooms, then we would have invested with the any of the Hotel Group which is cheaper and no monthly subscriptions.
Talk about subscriptions, I was just been enlightened that there is a 2 tier membership's fees, golfing and non golfing. We only know that subscriptions fees of $125 entitles you to use the Legends Golf Course in JB. We do not know that you will pay less if you do not need golfing. The management can argued that information is listed on the web but then again, if you are already a member for so many years do you go the site to search for such info.
Sincerely hope that the Owner and the Management will look into the process of this project into greater thoughts. We do not want to lose this Club!!!
Joe, we will support your petition.
HL
====
If anyone would like me to publish their feedback, please leave a comment or email me at goo.nguyen@gmail.com
- Joe
Thursday, October 9, 2008
Response from TLFC RE: $80 Monthly Fee For "Golf" Members
As Mr. Hofer is away, Amy Cheong has kindly responded to my open letter on his behalf. Excerpt below - followed by my response:
====
From: Amy Cheong
Date: Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Open Letter to GM Herbert Hoeffer RE: $80 Monthly Fee for "Golf" members
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your email to Mr Hofer dated 7 Oct 08. Mr Hofer is currently out of the office and will be back on Monday, 13 Oct 08, so I am replying on his behalf.
The Management is willing to allow members who wish to convert their Golfing Membership to Social Membership, and they will then pay the Social Membership subscription fees when the sub fees are reinstated. As Social Members, they are still welcome at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, and may play golf there at the Member’s Guest rate, which is what the existing Social Members are doing. Please note, however, that this conversion is a one-time process and is irreversible. Should the member wish to transfer his membership at a later stage, it will be as a Social Membership. Also, this conversion must be formalized by the member signing the Membership Conversion Form (which we are currently working on and which would be available from the Membership Department next week) in person.
====
My response is as follows:
====
Hi Amy,
This does not answer my queries. This was what you have already told us all verbally on Monday evening. So there is nothing new there.
Can we have confirmation that $80 of our $125 fees are actually going to subsidize the Golf Club and that the Legends Fort Canning is only currently getting $45 from our fee?
Also can you help us reach out to other Golf Members to get a discussion and understanding on the above? As I mentioned, most people do not know that they are Golf Members and are required to pay this fee. This would only be good membership service to let them know before the next bill comes. It is already in the press today that "Because of the closure, members will not have to pay subscription fees from Oct 16 this year to April 1, 2009." The same was said in Mr. Hofer's mail on the 25th of September. This is obviously not the truth.
Joe
====
====
From: Amy Cheong
Date: Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Open Letter to GM Herbert Hoeffer RE: $80 Monthly Fee for "Golf" members
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your email to Mr Hofer dated 7 Oct 08. Mr Hofer is currently out of the office and will be back on Monday, 13 Oct 08, so I am replying on his behalf.
The Management is willing to allow members who wish to convert their Golfing Membership to Social Membership, and they will then pay the Social Membership subscription fees when the sub fees are reinstated. As Social Members, they are still welcome at The Legends Golf & Country Resort, and may play golf there at the Member’s Guest rate, which is what the existing Social Members are doing. Please note, however, that this conversion is a one-time process and is irreversible. Should the member wish to transfer his membership at a later stage, it will be as a Social Membership. Also, this conversion must be formalized by the member signing the Membership Conversion Form (which we are currently working on and which would be available from the Membership Department next week) in person.
====
My response is as follows:
====
Hi Amy,
This does not answer my queries. This was what you have already told us all verbally on Monday evening. So there is nothing new there.
Can we have confirmation that $80 of our $125 fees are actually going to subsidize the Golf Club and that the Legends Fort Canning is only currently getting $45 from our fee?
Also can you help us reach out to other Golf Members to get a discussion and understanding on the above? As I mentioned, most people do not know that they are Golf Members and are required to pay this fee. This would only be good membership service to let them know before the next bill comes. It is already in the press today that "Because of the closure, members will not have to pay subscription fees from Oct 16 this year to April 1, 2009." The same was said in Mr. Hofer's mail on the 25th of September. This is obviously not the truth.
Joe
====
Tuesday, October 7, 2008
Open Letter to GM Herbert Hoefer RE: $80 Monthly Fee for "Golf" Members
Dear Mr. Hofer,
Thank you and Mr. Oh for holding the members briefing last night. While there were many issues being discussed during the Question & Answer session, one major issue was not brought up clearly. When Amy mentioned that the $80 monthly fee will remain for "Golf" Members, most of us did not understand what that means. Many of us are not aware that WE are "Golf" Members and will have to pay this fee. We thought that the letter sent to us which stated that "There will be no subscription fees at all"* is actually the truth and without any *Terms & Conditions. (*Correction: "From 16 October 2008 to 1 April 2009, member subscription fees will be waived.")
We started to realize this after the Q&A session - as it seems that anyone who is paying the monthly fee of $125 per month is a "Golf" Member of The Legends Fort Canning (TLFC). And there were many of us.
I understand that the number of "Golf" Members - including myself and a number of other members I spoke to last night - are around 500 or so. Of those, I am sure less than 200 have ever golfed at Legends Golf & Country Resort (LGCR), and probably less than 100 golf there regularly. Forcing every "Golf" Member to pay $80 per month means a few things:
1) The 300 "Golf" Members who have NEVER been to LGCR will each be paying $480 for the next 6 months for NOTHING. The 100 or so members that golf there once or twice a year contributes another $48,000 over the next 6 months.
2) If this is indeed the way our "Golf" Membership fees have been distributed up to now (i.e. Of the $125 per month, $80 goes to LGCR and $45 goes to TLFC), then there is something wrong. This means that - every year - the 500 "Golf" Members send $480,000 to Malaysia (500 X $80 X 12). That's almost half a million dollars.
So we don't get it. Please help us understand:
- From the owner's perspective, why are they throwing money away into a business (LGCR) that can not sustain itself? LGCR is not as convenient as other Johor courses and will have problems staying open without TLFC cash. Cash for which they are not delivering any service since most of the Golf Members do not go there. Why don't they keep the $480,000 in Singapore and use half of it to upkeep and improve TLFC and pocket the other half as profit? You mentioned last night you are not keeping Legends Gardens because it does not make money. So what about the golf club relationship?
- Why are Singapore-based owners and members subsidizing a Malaysian white elephant?
If there is a contract between LGCR and TLFC stating that the monthly fees from "Golf" Members be distributed this way, then perhaps we can help. You mentioned that "Golf" Members can convert to "Social" Members. What if we get 300-400 Golf Members to convert to Social Members en-mass (at the same time)?
We all use The Legends Fort Canning as a "Town Club" in any case; this is what the renovated club is trying to position itself if I understand correctly. Converting en-mass would:
a) Save us 300-400 "Golf Members" collectively $144,000 to $192,000 in the next 6 months, and
b) After the club reopens, The Legends Fort Canning can keep the $32,000 per month ($80 X 400 members) to use on its own facilities and services. Or better yet, reduce monthly membership fees for ALL members.
Can you speak to the owners and come back to us? Please reply to everyone on the CC list. We are actively reaching out to other members who are in the same predicament as we are. This open letter is posted at a new site: http://legendsfortcanning.blogspot.com.
Best Regards,
Joe Nguyen
P.S. To members on this CC list, please forward this to as many other members as possible.
Thank you and Mr. Oh for holding the members briefing last night. While there were many issues being discussed during the Question & Answer session, one major issue was not brought up clearly. When Amy mentioned that the $80 monthly fee will remain for "Golf" Members, most of us did not understand what that means. Many of us are not aware that WE are "Golf" Members and will have to pay this fee. We thought that the letter sent to us which stated that "There will be no subscription fees at all"* is actually the truth and without any *Terms & Conditions. (*Correction: "From 16 October 2008 to 1 April 2009, member subscription fees will be waived.")
We started to realize this after the Q&A session - as it seems that anyone who is paying the monthly fee of $125 per month is a "Golf" Member of The Legends Fort Canning (TLFC). And there were many of us.
I understand that the number of "Golf" Members - including myself and a number of other members I spoke to last night - are around 500 or so. Of those, I am sure less than 200 have ever golfed at Legends Golf & Country Resort (LGCR), and probably less than 100 golf there regularly. Forcing every "Golf" Member to pay $80 per month means a few things:
1) The 300 "Golf" Members who have NEVER been to LGCR will each be paying $480 for the next 6 months for NOTHING. The 100 or so members that golf there once or twice a year contributes another $48,000 over the next 6 months.
2) If this is indeed the way our "Golf" Membership fees have been distributed up to now (i.e. Of the $125 per month, $80 goes to LGCR and $45 goes to TLFC), then there is something wrong. This means that - every year - the 500 "Golf" Members send $480,000 to Malaysia (500 X $80 X 12). That's almost half a million dollars.
So we don't get it. Please help us understand:
- From the owner's perspective, why are they throwing money away into a business (LGCR) that can not sustain itself? LGCR is not as convenient as other Johor courses and will have problems staying open without TLFC cash. Cash for which they are not delivering any service since most of the Golf Members do not go there. Why don't they keep the $480,000 in Singapore and use half of it to upkeep and improve TLFC and pocket the other half as profit? You mentioned last night you are not keeping Legends Gardens because it does not make money. So what about the golf club relationship?
- Why are Singapore-based owners and members subsidizing a Malaysian white elephant?
If there is a contract between LGCR and TLFC stating that the monthly fees from "Golf" Members be distributed this way, then perhaps we can help. You mentioned that "Golf" Members can convert to "Social" Members. What if we get 300-400 Golf Members to convert to Social Members en-mass (at the same time)?
We all use The Legends Fort Canning as a "Town Club" in any case; this is what the renovated club is trying to position itself if I understand correctly. Converting en-mass would:
a) Save us 300-400 "Golf Members" collectively $144,000 to $192,000 in the next 6 months, and
b) After the club reopens, The Legends Fort Canning can keep the $32,000 per month ($80 X 400 members) to use on its own facilities and services. Or better yet, reduce monthly membership fees for ALL members.
Can you speak to the owners and come back to us? Please reply to everyone on the CC list. We are actively reaching out to other members who are in the same predicament as we are. This open letter is posted at a new site: http://legendsfortcanning.blogspot.com.
Best Regards,
Joe Nguyen
P.S. To members on this CC list, please forward this to as many other members as possible.
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